Stealth mode is back!

[Asthaloth]

So my neofriends (Besides the point that I have none) know I've been online for X minutes.
... How does this mean I'm going to get abducted?
I mean seriously? How does that work? Maybe I missed something terribly profound about all this?

Making a joke of it isn't very nice.

Knowing when someone is online and how long for can be used to take advantage of someone. A child befriends someone, they get to know their neo habits and can 'stalk' them. It is an extreme example, but it could happen.

The main thread through all of this, is just that it doesn't give us a choice whether to be seen or not.

Well yes the choice would be nice, but we could spout extreme examples of people being abducted til the cows come home but it's a bit pointless.
Someone knowing your habits makes you no more of a target than mailing you randomly.

[Daze]

Well yes the choice would be nice, but we could spout extreme examples of people being abducted til the cows come home but it's a bit pointless.
Someone knowing your habits makes you no more of a target than mailing you randomly.

No-one is claiming that anyone is going to be abducted because of this, but it does make the younger members more vulnerable. But I don't see it as pointless as you do, just to remind people that, this is how those things can happen.

And actually yes, someone knowing your habits, does make you a target if someone was intent on doing so. Just because it is called 'Neofriends' doesn't mean that they all are friendly.

All said and done, we can remove all Neofriends, but younger players may feel that they can't remove or block them. In a perfect world, parents would watch their children and protect them from such things, but it is not a perfect world and yes, children will put up with a lot of things just so they feel like they fit in.

[Asthaloth]

Hypothetical.

Mr X knows that I am online between, say, 10-AM and 4PM daily.
he messages me between these times knowing that I will be online, I reply...

Mr X doesn't know I'm online at these times and messages me randomly, say, 6PM, I reply when I get online at 10AM. We exchange messages until I go offline at 4PM...

I honestly don't see what difference it makes, anyone determined to do such things will very quickly work out my habits without a lil ghost-Krawk avatar sat at one side of the screen telling them I'm online?

[Daze]

I honestly don't see what difference it makes, anyone determined to do such things will very quickly work out my habits without a lil ghost-Krawk avatar sat at one side of the screen telling them I'm online?

See, you almost have it! Anyone determined enough will work out your habits, now just imagine if they didn't have to try so hard.

This isn't the right place to get into specifics - every time I try to explain, my posts wont go through. Unfortunately, I have seen on TV and read about how this type of peson works - they spend months or years getting to know a child. Having direct access to when the child is on Neo just makes it easier for them.

Neo is moderately safe because it is a monitored site - but we all know the whole site isn't monitored 24 hours a day - the chat boards can have some nasty posts for 24 hours or longer if the monitors aren't there to delete it. But we shouldn't become complacent, Neopets maybe safer than other sites, but it is not fool-proof.

[Matrinka]

Okay, I'm boiling this down:

Some people are private and want to keep their habits that way. Some people are voyeurs and like to know what others are up to. The only way to satisfy BOTH sides is to allow people to go into stealth mode if they want to do so.

The lookie-loos will be able to look at those who want to have their status known. Those of us who like our anonymity will be allowed to keep it.

[Daze]

Scratching my head at TNT.

On today's news:

Ever wonder what Lawyerbot does all day? So do we, but he claims to be responsible for the new and improved Privacy Policy. We have our doubts....

TNT update the privacy laws while taking away our online privacy!!!!

[Morningstar]

:roll: Scratching my head at TNT.

On today's news:

Ever wonder what Lawyerbot does all day? So do we, but he claims to be responsible for the new and improved Privacy Policy. We have our doubts....

TNT update the privacy laws while taking away our online privacy!!!!

Daze, I was just about to say the same thing. It is quite an interesting read if you have the time. It is quite obvious that TNT has been reading this thread and now are covering their behinds with the new privacy policy--so they aren't liable if something happens to one of their users. Shame that they couldn't just give each of us the option to turn off the flashing beacon that notifies our friends when we are online.

[AySz88]

Okay, I'm boiling this down:

Some people are private and want to keep their habits that way. Some people are voyeurs and like to know what others are up to. The only way to satisfy BOTH sides is to allow people to go into stealth mode if they want to do so.

The lookie-loos will be able to look at those who want to have their status known. Those of us who like our anonymity will be allowed to keep it.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself, but...

Again, this sort of summary forgets that we *do* have way to control who gets to see your online status. It just doesn't work because the semantics aren't right (friends != neofriends). This is a critical difference between the two posed problems, and until the difference is understood, people will keep asking the wrong thing from TNT, and the problem's not going to be solved.

(As an aside, I'm finding it amusing that I can express this idea more concisely each time I have to repeat it; I wonder if I can get it down to one sentence. )

[edit] Hopefully that also clears things up for those who keep insisting this is an issue of TNT ignoring privacy rights because players don't have control who gets to see our online status. We do have control. It's just not a fine enough control (i.e. combined with too many other permssions).

[Siniri]

From the new policy:

How We Use the Information

We use visitors' Personal Information for our internal purposes of enabling visitors to enter one of our online contests or sweepstakes, to subscribe to our online newsletter, or to inform visitors of upcoming events and special announcements. Each e-mail contains instructions on how to be removed from the subscription list. We also use visitors' Computer Information to track usage, improve the design of the Site, offer products and services, to personalize our visitor's experiences, save your password in password-protected areas, enable you to use shopping carts on our sites and to ensure visitors are following the site's Agreement.

Nowhere in the privacy policy does it say that they will share our Personal Information or Computer Information with other users of the site. Does anyone know how this has changed from the old policy?

[Morningstar]

From the new policy:

How We Use the Information

We use visitors' Personal Information for our internal purposes of enabling visitors to enter one of our online contests or sweepstakes, to subscribe to our online newsletter, or to inform visitors of upcoming events and special announcements. Each e-mail contains instructions on how to be removed from the subscription list. We also use visitors' Computer Information to track usage, improve the design of the Site, offer products and services, to personalize our visitor's experiences, save your password in password-protected areas, enable you to use shopping carts on our sites and to ensure visitors are following the site's Agreement.

Nowhere in the privacy policy does it say that they will share our Personal Information or Computer Information with other users of the site. Does anyone know how this has changed from the old policy?

"We also use visitors' Computer Information to . . . improve the design of the Site, . . . to personalize our visitor's experiences." This is so vague that my guess is that it would cover sharing our personal/computer info with others. After all, Neopets could easily argue that it "improves the design of the Site" and "personalizes our visitors experiences." After all, both are measured subjectively and not objectively. I've worked for many a lawyerbot in my day and lots of them like to make their language as vague as possible. To cover every possible scenario without specifically spelling each one out.

[VirtualMetal]

I'm getting tired of repeating myself, but...

Again, this sort of summary forgets that we *do* have way to control who gets to see your online status. It just doesn't work because the semantics aren't right (friends != neofriends). This is a critical difference between the two posed problems, and until the difference is understood, people will keep asking the wrong thing from TNT, and the problem's not going to be solved.

(As an aside, I'm finding it amusing that I can express this idea more concisely each time I have to repeat it; I wonder if I can get it down to one sentence. )

[edit] Hopefully that also clears things up for those who keep insisting this is an issue of TNT ignoring privacy rights because players don't have control who gets to see our online status. We do have control. It's just not a fine enough control (i.e. combined with too many other permssions).

You're forgetting that this was forced on us from a feature that wasn't that way to begin with. For 7 years it wasn't that way. Which means it's wrong.

We're not asking TNT the wrong questions at all. They're not that dense not to understand that all we want is an option to turn it off. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

TNT has dramatically without warning changed a feature we all enjoyed and you're saying we just have to lump it and delete all our Neofriends and write their names on paper?

[Morningstar]

TNT has dramatically without warning changed a feature we all enjoyed and you're saying we just have to lump it and delete all our Neofriends and write their names on paper?

Imagine what a pain in the neck that would be for someone who leads a guild (like myself) and needs to send a gift or neomail to each guild member. Instead of being able to use the drop down list of my guild members to do so, I'd instead have to write in each name.

Virtual is right on the mark. We aren't asking Neopets to move a freeking mountain. We are only asking to be given back what they took away. Is it so much to ask to be given the option of turning the Neofriends module off, if we so desire.

[AySz88]

TNT has dramatically without warning changed a feature we all enjoyed and you're saying we just have to lump it and delete all our Neofriends and write their names on paper?

If you keep insisting on things that way, you may well have to. (And to be more accurate, not delete all your Neofriends, just delete those that aren't actually your friends.)

You're forgetting that this was forced on us from a feature that wasn't that way to begin with. For 7 years it wasn't that way. Which means it's wrong.

We're not asking TNT the wrong questions at all. They're not that dense not to understand that all we want is an option to turn it off. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

I know that "it's wrong", but obviously TNT was dense enough to not understand that they need what's being asked. "What's being asked", however, really isn't as obvious as you think it is. Running around screaming "turn it off!" is not going to help.

I hope you allow me a bit of geek / comp sci jargon, and I'll try to explain exactly why it's non-obvious...

This is a permissions issue. The permission level involved here was intended to be "this person is my friend, thus let them do whatever I want my friends to be able to do". I'll abbreviate this idea as "something = friends".

To see that "Neofriends = friends" was definitely what was intended to happen, take a look at how the preferences page is structured. Notice that the permission settings are "only let my Neofriends do X", such as "Only Neofriends Can Contact". (All of these permissions were also in place "for 7 years", or however long it was, so you also can't really say it "wasn't that way".)

Apparently, the way the "Neofriends" permission level is being used is as just a contact list. This is obviously not what the original programmers of the permission were expecting. (see above) TNT just ended up assuming the integrity of the permission without checking that it was still holding true.

Thus, TNT has to make a new permission level - or use the VIP setting, which hopefully should really mean "these are my friends" - in order to control who gets all those "friend" permissions. Or at least make one that controls the online contact permission, as that's what everyone is rightfully complaining about right now.

A big problem is that "VIP = friends" actually is somewhat non-intuitive for new users, but since people have already turned their Neofriends lists into contact lists, it's the only way to fix it.

[edit] I just thought of another idea - as a second step, rename the current Neofriends to "contact list", then whoever is checked off as VIP should be sent a Neofriend invite. (Two people that send each other Neofriend invites automatically become Neofriends. This seems to actually be how it works right now, from experience.) That gets rid of the non-intuitive problem, and splits contact list functionality from the permissions. It's just too much to implement in one go, though.

Imagine what a pain in the neck that would be for someone who leads a guild (like myself) and needs to send a gift or neomail to each guild member. Instead of being able to use the drop down list of my guild members to do so, I'd instead have to write in each name.

Again, if TNT comes back and says "you really shouldn't have Neofriends that aren't really your friends", you might just end up with this. The real issue is that being in a situation where "my Neofriends list is just a contact list and aren't my friends" needs to be OK.

[Morningstar]

Again, if TNT comes back and says "you really shouldn't have Neofriends that aren't really your friends", you might just end up with this. The real issue is that being in a situation where "my Neofriends list is just a contact list and aren't my friends" needs to be OK.

OK, so how do you explain the difference between a VIP neofriend and a regular neofriend. If TNT didn't want us to have different levels of friendship, then why did they differentiate neofriends like that. I don't mind if my VIP neofriends see me online. Because I can pick who my VIP friends are. So, why don't they limit this to a user's VIP friends.

And what really gets me is that premium members who go into stealth mode can turn this off. So, it is as if Neopets is saying to people that if you want privacy, you have to pay for it. Which is really unfair, in my opinion.

[AySz88]

OK, so how do you explain the difference between a VIP neofriend and a regular neofriend. If TNT didn't want us to have different levels of friendship, then why did they differentiate neofriends like that. I don't mind if my VIP neofriends see me online. Because I can pick who my VIP friends are. So, why don't they limit this to a user's VIP friends.

"VIP" Neofriends don't get any permissions right now (and, actually, no indication at all that they've been made into a "VIP") - all it apparently does is choose who goes in various dropdowns. So it's really not wired up as a permissions level.

As for why didn't they make VIPs a permission level when they rolled this out... Because they're lazy? I hope they do so, or do something similar.