Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:11 am
Agree with bgryph.
I won't go into too many details, but no, "impatience" isn't the cause, so it's not killing the "neoconomy". If there's lots and lots of "impatient" people in a high volume market (i.e. parting with things for roughly negative payoff), something's wrong with the game that's causing people to either undervalue their own stuff or create too much supply. (I know of something similar that happened in Puzzle Pirates, where operating a shop in itself was neat and tons of people stopped factoring in their own time as a cost.) In such a situation, nobody can reverse it without fixing the game.
But here, it's actually feasible to, as an individual, grab everything one thinks is "undervalued" - so you might want to give it a bit of pause. You're betting on undervaluation when it could be oversupply. If that situation's been like that for a while, then apparently, nobody else has thought the same.
In a market, if sellers aren't willing to part with it for 50k and nobody's buying, 50k is not the market equilibrium price. Especially if a few people are willing to sell for almost half and the things still aren't selling quickly - that's a lot of added payoff for buyers!
Also, don't forget that the SSW compiles only the top few results from each letter group, so beware if it's many people that are all in a single group or two (as you'll end up seeing another person with a cheap price, then another, then...).
I won't go into too many details, but no, "impatience" isn't the cause, so it's not killing the "neoconomy". If there's lots and lots of "impatient" people in a high volume market (i.e. parting with things for roughly negative payoff), something's wrong with the game that's causing people to either undervalue their own stuff or create too much supply. (I know of something similar that happened in Puzzle Pirates, where operating a shop in itself was neat and tons of people stopped factoring in their own time as a cost.) In such a situation, nobody can reverse it without fixing the game.
But here, it's actually feasible to, as an individual, grab everything one thinks is "undervalued" - so you might want to give it a bit of pause. You're betting on undervaluation when it could be oversupply. If that situation's been like that for a while, then apparently, nobody else has thought the same.
In a market, if sellers aren't willing to part with it for 50k and nobody's buying, 50k is not the market equilibrium price. Especially if a few people are willing to sell for almost half and the things still aren't selling quickly - that's a lot of added payoff for buyers!
Also, don't forget that the SSW compiles only the top few results from each letter group, so beware if it's many people that are all in a single group or two (as you'll end up seeing another person with a cheap price, then another, then...).
Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:38 am
The way I see it - if you win your WC piece, then it is a free item to start with. So any price you sell it for is a profit.
But in general:
Some people like a fast turning in nps - maybe to buy other items to sell quickly, therefore keeping a flow of nps, so sell at the low end of the scale or cheaper (I did this when I first started). It is not impatience to sell that choose the cheap price, but those who want a fast turn over of neopoints.
Others know that the items will eventually sell so price at the high end of the scale. The profit is higher but takes a little longer - usually the long termers - those of us that have been around awhile and are well set up.
I usually price to the SSW or my shop group and buy any cheaper than the average.
It is not impatience that people sell cheaper, but how they decide what way suits them better in making nps.
A few cheaper items will never hurt the neocomony.
But in general:
Some people like a fast turning in nps - maybe to buy other items to sell quickly, therefore keeping a flow of nps, so sell at the low end of the scale or cheaper (I did this when I first started). It is not impatience to sell that choose the cheap price, but those who want a fast turn over of neopoints.
Others know that the items will eventually sell so price at the high end of the scale. The profit is higher but takes a little longer - usually the long termers - those of us that have been around awhile and are well set up.
I usually price to the SSW or my shop group and buy any cheaper than the average.
It is not impatience that people sell cheaper, but how they decide what way suits them better in making nps.
A few cheaper items will never hurt the neocomony.
Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:11 am
Daze wrote:The way I see it - if you win your WC piece, then it is a free item to start with. So any price you sell it for is a profit.
Daze, those are such wise words. And yet so many people forget that.
Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:28 am
Daze
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject:
The way I see it - if you win your WC piece, then it is a free item to start with. So any price you sell it for is a profit.
But in general:
Some people like a fast turning in nps - maybe to buy other items to sell quickly, therefore keeping a flow of nps, so sell at the low end of the scale or cheaper (I did this when I first started). It is not impatience to sell that choose the cheap price, but those who want a fast turn over of neopoints.
Others know that the items will eventually sell so price at the high end of the scale. The profit is higher but takes a little longer - usually the long termers - those of us that have been around awhile and are well set up.
I usually price to the SSW or my shop group and buy any cheaper than the average.
It is not impatience that people sell cheaper, but how they decide what way suits them better in making nps.
A few cheaper items will never hurt the neocomony.
That's how I make my Neopoint's, I want a fast turn over. When I find a good deal I buy it and then I price it the lowest on the Wiz. Keep in mind I'm still making at the very least a 75% profit.
When I first got Premium I made 3 million in 3 1/2 weeks, just selling little items, not the big money makers like morphing potions or paintbrushes and I was new to restocking, I didn't know a lick about it.[/quote]
Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:08 pm
Daze wrote:The way I see it - if you win your WC piece, then it is a free item to start with. So any price you sell it for is a profit. But in general:
Some people like a fast turning in nps - maybe to buy other items to sell quickly, therefore keeping a flow of nps, so sell at the low end of the scale or cheaper (I did this when I first started). It is not impatience to sell that choose the cheap price, but those who want a fast turn over of neopoints.
Others know that the items will eventually sell so price at the high end of the scale. The profit is higher but takes a little longer - usually the long termers - those of us that have been around awhile and are well set up.
I usually price to the SSW or my shop group and buy any cheaper than the average.
It is not impatience that people sell cheaper, but how they decide what way suits them better in making nps.
A few cheaper items will never hurt the neocomony.
I agree. You may a maximum of 100np to enter the WC, and if you win a piece you'll get more than that back.
Why should the price be 50K for an item that doesn't cost you anything (in np?)
Why should poeple who are not as good at/can't play/don't have a fast enough computer to use flash games not be able to collect the pieces for a more reasonable price if poeple are willing to sell it at that?
It's a game remember, don't be soo greedy.
Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:36 pm
That's not really a valid argument... That's the same as saying that the prizes we get from plots (like BD weapons and paint brushes) should be sold for 1NP, because you'd still be making a profit out of something that didn't cost anything to begin with.
As for the thing with the WC pieces, it's been discussed pretty extensively, so I have nothing to add to that
As for the thing with the WC pieces, it's been discussed pretty extensively, so I have nothing to add to that
Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:00 pm
I don't think it is the same thing as saying that we should sell such items for 1NP...just that there is always a profit, even if you have the need to dump an item quick and therefore slash a few thousand from the price. Of course nobody in their right mind would sell their items for an ultra low profit...you want to maximize profit, but at the same time most people don't want to have an item for ever. Still, plot/WC/etc items were monetarily (but not time-wise) "free" to begin with. The only investment was time/effort, not NP.
Envision, if you will, a supply and demand graph...but subsitute "profit" and "time." Where those two lines cross is the price a person will sell the item at. It's the classic "guns vs. butter" tradeoff that oh so many economics books talk about. Of course, the point of intersection will vary from individual to individual.
Envision, if you will, a supply and demand graph...but subsitute "profit" and "time." Where those two lines cross is the price a person will sell the item at. It's the classic "guns vs. butter" tradeoff that oh so many economics books talk about. Of course, the point of intersection will vary from individual to individual.
Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:50 pm
Morningstar wrote:Daze wrote:The way I see it - if you win your WC piece, then it is a free item to start with. So any price you sell it for is a profit.
Daze, those are such wise words. And yet so many people forget that.
It's true, but I don't think it's wise. Those of us who enter the WC do it to make the best profit we can. Many WCers are gameplayers only, and this is their main source of income. You wouldn't tell a rser to sell you his Leaded Elemental Vial for 200k just because that's double what he paid in the Neopian shop, would you? No, because the thing's worth 30 mil+, and no one expects him to sell for a lot less and be happy he made a profit at all.
I agree with what a lot of you are saying, in general, but you don't seem to be familiar with World Challenges and/or the WC map market, so your strategies ("buy up the cheaper ones") don't really work. I'll explain a little bit.
WC pieces (for map IIIs, anyway -- I'm not sure about others) DO sell pretty steadily at an average price of 11-15k, with a few select pieces going for 25k or 50k, and the VERY occasional (rarer) piece going for 75k or so. They are worth this much. If you collect all 20, you get a paint brush -- and map IIIs give the best pbs (Orange, Halloween, Biscuit, Ghost, Electric, Camo, Fire, Lost Desert). Keep in mind that before WCers can even earn these map III pieces to sell, we need to complete maps I and II (a total of 40 map pieces). This is a fairly big time commitment, considering we earn just three (random) pieces per day (and have to either wait weeks or buy or trade for the rarer pieces, sometimes being forced to trade two or three cheap ones for a good one). We get prizes when we turn these maps in, but with maps I and II, we often could have made more selling the individual pieces. The games are fun, yes, but this is work.
Most sellers are very good about undercutting each other by only 500np-1k, but occasionally some new WCer will come in, be too lazy to check prices (or just be impatient), and will sell all their pieces really cheap. We had a problem with this with Tyrannia III maps -- people were selling pieces worth 15k for 8k. Since they can earn three pieces per day, and since others (who can also earn three pieces per day) will come along and match/beat the too-low price, it's not really feasible to buy up all their cheap pieces, because that encourages them and they're just gonna do it again tomorrow. Luckily, in my experience, these people either tend to disappear or realize they can get more for the same pieces (which usually take less than a week to sell -- they are not that HTS).
I have no solution, obviously, besides "sit there and glower at the shop wiz, and then sigh and hope these people go away soon." But I'm annoyed that people have been attcking Roxy for griping (and offering simple and rather condescending advice when she didn't even ask for it). This is an annoying situation, and we WCers will gripe if we want to!
Last edited by Cranberry on Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:05 pm
Morningstar wrote:Daze wrote:The way I see it - if you win your WC piece, then it is a free item to start with. So any price you sell it for is a profit.
Daze, those are such wise words. And yet so many people forget that.
Uhh, I'd very much advise against taking such a view. That's the sort of view that can threaten to destroy an economy, especially one in a game where the (real-world) labor costs tend to disappear. Remember when I mentioned Puzzle Pirates? In Puzzle Pirates, people commonly dropped the real-world time necessary to ship various goods between items. Lots of shops started losing money, and needed a lot of outside cash to keep afloat - and not enough people were realizing it. Shopkeeping became Not Fun when people realized that they were sinking way too much time for way too little profit.
Everyone should (and needs to) keep in mind their own time and effort. The item is not free - you worked for it!
Of course, you can be nice and sell for less, but that really should be a conscious decision, not a result of misjudging how much work it took to get it.
[edits] flesh out description of old Puzzle Pirates problem
Last edited by AySz88 on Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:08 pm
I tend to be one of those impatient sellers, but here's the thing:
If I sell for less than someone else, then they can buy my piece and reprice it. I've done that with things that I've wanted to sell, rather than undercut the price.
I don't feel any real sense of honor about my pricing strategy - I don't say, "oh, I'll only price it 25 np below the next guy because I don't want to be lambasted in the shop boards." I tend to say, "I want to sell quickly while also maximizing my profit, so I'll only price it 25 np below the other guy."
I've also sold stuff at a steep discount just to get rid of it, to be totally honest with you. That includes WC maps. But it's not because I want to deflate the market (although that's not necessarily a bad thing from a marketwide perspective, just from a seller's perspective), it's just because I'm sick of seeing it around. I actually get a bit of a thrill from seeing my shop empty after restocking it.
If I sell for less than someone else, then they can buy my piece and reprice it. I've done that with things that I've wanted to sell, rather than undercut the price.
I don't feel any real sense of honor about my pricing strategy - I don't say, "oh, I'll only price it 25 np below the next guy because I don't want to be lambasted in the shop boards." I tend to say, "I want to sell quickly while also maximizing my profit, so I'll only price it 25 np below the other guy."
I've also sold stuff at a steep discount just to get rid of it, to be totally honest with you. That includes WC maps. But it's not because I want to deflate the market (although that's not necessarily a bad thing from a marketwide perspective, just from a seller's perspective), it's just because I'm sick of seeing it around. I actually get a bit of a thrill from seeing my shop empty after restocking it.
Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:00 pm
Cranberry wrote:I have no solution, obviously, besides "sit there and glower at the shop wiz, and then sigh and hope these people go away soon." But I'm annoyed that people have been attcking Roxy for griping (and offering simple and rather condescending advice when she didn't even ask for it). This is an annoying situation, and we WCers will gripe if we want to!
And that would basically be why I didn't even bother with much of a response, clearly, others are *better* than me... or something.
Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:20 pm
Morningstar wrote:DragonDoodies wrote:Quit griping about it and learn how to take advantage of the economy swings-- that's how the best players get richer. If you believe that strongly that your price is the right one, then buy the cheaper 3 and reprice them and then YOU be the patient one.
I agree. That's how I make my neopoints.
EDIT: Oops, Inrun, didn't see your comment. When I said I agreed, it didn't mean to tell anyone to stop griping. I meant that I agreed with taking advantage of swings in the economy. After all, I, at times, can gripe better probably than anyone else here. As my past posts often prove.
I know what you meant.
Twinklyspangle wrote:It's a game remember, don't be soo greedy.
I am really disturbed at this part of your reply. I don't see greed calculating into this at all and this response is inflamatory. I've already posted a warning on this thread, why on earth would you need to post this after seeing a warning about behaviour? It's not being greed, it's being honestly upset about something and you belittle the HotRoxy by posting things like this. Remember, she's a person too, how would you feel if you brought up a legitimate thought/concern only to be called greedy?
http://www.pinkpt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=141
Strike Policy and Rules because apparently some of you guys need refreshers.
HotRoxy wrote:And that would basically be why I didn't even bother with much of a response, clearly, others are *better* than me... or something.
I'm trying to figure out what to do with this thread, yes some of the replys have been condescending, but for the majority I don't think anyone has been trying to be purposefully hurtful. Perhaps impersonal, which happens, and quick, which also happens; but I am in the honest belief that other members have been trying to give you legitimate advice/thought on the subject. I don't think peope were trying to exactly be "better" then you so i'm truly sorry you do feel this way.
Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:55 pm
I'm trying to figure out what to do with this thread, yes some of the replys have been condescending, but for the majority I don't think anyone has been trying to be purposefully hurtful. Perhaps impersonal, which happens, and quick, which also happens; but I am in the honest belief that other members have been trying to give you legitimate advice/thought on the subject. I don't think peope were trying to exactly be "better" then you so i'm truly sorry you do feel this way.
I guess we feel differently, which is cool, it's not going to ruin my day or anything. I've dealt with forums for the majorty of the last 5-8 years, and when something like this happens, it's best just to ignore and move on. I'm not interested in getting into a war of words with someone or a group of those who are simply not interested in a two sided debate and that's where I feel the entitlement comes from; unfortunately, I seem to be on the wrong side of the opinion fence.
Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:21 pm
Cranberry wrote:
Since they can earn three pieces per day, and since others (who can also earn three pieces per day) will come along and match/beat the too-low price, it's not really feasible to buy up all their cheap pieces, because that encourages them and they're just gonna do it again tomorrow. Luckily, in my experience, these people either tend to disappear or realize they can get more for the same pieces (which usually take less than a week to sell -- they are not that HTS).
I'm afraid it's not clear to me from your explanation why buying them and re-selling them is a problem. How many pieces are we talking about? If they're going to sell for for 8k anyway I don't see how buying and then reselling them will encourage them.
Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:33 pm
Three pieces per day, seven days a week = 21 pieces per week. At 8k per piece, we're talking about 168k per week just to clean up these guys' messes. And my point is that the pieces normally sell for 15k. They have sold for 15k for months and months. If they were "worth" 8k, they would have deflated to 8k normally long ago. They did not, and they only do for short periods, when one of the annoying little undercutters we're complaining about comes along.
Buying all three of their pieces at once, every day, will certainly encourage them. They'll think, "Oh great, my pieces sell well at this price; I'm gonna keep pricing them this way!" If we leave them, the 8k pieces still sit around for a few days (not a week, like the normally-priced pieces, but they still don't sell instantly). The downside to that is that other people will start undercutting the undercutters... there's really no way to win unless they go away.
I don't think I can make it any clearer; sorry.
Buying all three of their pieces at once, every day, will certainly encourage them. They'll think, "Oh great, my pieces sell well at this price; I'm gonna keep pricing them this way!" If we leave them, the 8k pieces still sit around for a few days (not a week, like the normally-priced pieces, but they still don't sell instantly). The downside to that is that other people will start undercutting the undercutters... there's really no way to win unless they go away.
I don't think I can make it any clearer; sorry.