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 Post subject: Re: NEW PLOT!! The Faeries' Ruin
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:08 pm 
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Siniri wrote:
I'm disappointed with the level of difficulty in the puzzle steps. The achievements were far too easy. I miss the personalized puzzles of plots past.

For example, in this current step, it would have been easy to randomly assign each insult a different range for each person, and make it dependent on both what Xandra was saying and the distance. Then you would have had to figure out for yourself which insult to use when in order to solve it and get the achievements.

That would be fun. That reminds me of the time where we had to get the goo unstuck. For this plot step, we just have to make sure that we don't get Xandra too angry...
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 Post subject: Re: NEW PLOT!! The Faeries' Ruin
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:14 am 
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Siniri wrote:
For example, in this current step, it would have been easy to randomly assign each insult a different range for each person, and make it dependent on both what Xandra was saying and the distance. Then you would have had to figure out for yourself which insult to use when in order to solve it and get the achievements.


A different range? As in, for some people "You stink!" would be a really offensive insult (and incur a lot of xandrary wrath), for others it wouldn't be?

On the whole, I think more personalised plots are better... But it's a fine line for TNT to walk. LDP was far to difficult and complex for the site's market. I don't know, maybe a 'temple of a dozen or so tombs' would have been enough ;).

It's disappointing how quick people are to use guides to solve plot steps, though. I remember a couple of days after the brightvale library step, people were complaining that it was too easy:

"Did you use a guide?"
"Well, yes."

It wasn't easy if you were there at three o'clock in the morning UK time trying to figure out the damn thing for the first time just so you could update the Neodex before Jellyneo, I tell you.

(Not that I'm competitive or anything.)

(Obligitory Neodex Plug.)

I'm not going to say people shouldn't use guides or that there shouldn't be guides: I think plot puzzles should be more of the kind where the method is universal, but the implementation of that method is different for every person. In one of the puzzles of ToW, for example, you had to find your own vines in your own places then work out which to braid together to make a long enough and strong enough rope: all a guide could do is say "You need to find x vines, these are all the different types of vines, then you need to find your way to here, then you need to make a rope that's strong enough by choosing the correct combination".

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 Post subject: Re: NEW PLOT!! The Faeries' Ruin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:40 pm 
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Jelani wrote:
It's disappointing how quick people are to use guides to solve plot steps, though. I remember a couple of days after the brightvale library step, people were complaining that it was too easy:

"Did you use a guide?"
"Well, yes."

It wasn't easy if you were there at three o'clock in the morning UK time trying to figure out the damn thing for the first time just so you could update the Neodex before Jellyneo, I tell you.

A fair point. I use guides depending on how much time I have. For the current step, I figured out things for myself, and that seemed easier than trying to follow a guide.

Quote:
I'm not going to say people shouldn't use guides or that there shouldn't be guides: I think plot puzzles should be more of the kind where the method is universal, but the implementation of that method is different for every person. In one of the puzzles of ToW, for example, you had to find your own vines in your own places then work out which to braid together to make a long enough and strong enough rope: all a guide could do is say "You need to find x vines, these are all the different types of vines, then you need to find your way to here, then you need to make a rope that's strong enough by choosing the correct combination".

Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say. This could have easily been done for this step; randomizing which insults angered Xandra more for each person.



To other comments: Regarding the level of complexity, I think it's silly to dumb everything down to the least common denominator. Sure, some people are younger or have less time to work things out. But TNT still has a Lenny Conundrum, which sometimes requires calculus to solve. Most of the site is accessible for their current "target market." But if you try too hard to please the tweens to the exclusion of everyone else, then everyone else will go away. Something like 20% of users are adults (maybe more). That's a sizable market, too -- and one that spends an awful lot more money on the site (NC, premium, etc.).

Because this plot did not rely on completing one step before moving onto the next, it wouldn't have hurt anything to put a few achievements here or there (or even whole steps) that were a bit more difficult. Even if a younger player couldn't solve it, they could still do most of the plot, so they'd have no reason to leave. If anything, it'd give them motivation to work harder at the site.

Besides, in the past, with harder steps, if someone was really struggling, others would help them figure it out. So as long as you had the time, you were able to do it. Notice how much shorter this thread is vs. prior plots'. Yes, part of that is because PPT is smaller. But comparing the actual comments, very little of our discussion has been about how to do certain plot steps. And to me, that indicates that this plot has been far too easy as long as you have a guide. In the past, even with a guide, people struggled. And so when you finally solved a step, it meant something. Here, not so much. It just means you jumped through TNT's hoops.

The only exceptions might be Castle Nox and the dark caves -- but for the dark caves, mapping them when they were invisible was much harder than just fumbling around randomly (compared to the vines step in ToW, when some people really had to map them to finish). And Castle Nox was more tedious than challenging, I think.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW PLOT!! The Faeries' Ruin
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:19 am 
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Siniri wrote:
Sure, some people are younger or have less time to work things out. But TNT still has a Lenny Conundrum, which sometimes requires calculus to solve. Most of the site is accessible for their current "target market." But if you try too hard to please the tweens to the exclusion of everyone else, then everyone else will go away. Something like 20% of users are adults (maybe more). That's a sizable market, too -- and one that spends an awful lot more money on the site (NC, premium, etc.).

Because this plot did not rely on completing one step before moving onto the next, it wouldn't have hurt anything to put a few achievements here or there (or even whole steps) that were a bit more difficult. Even if a younger player couldn't solve it, they could still do most of the plot, so they'd have no reason to leave. If anything, it'd give them motivation to work harder at the site.

Besides, in the past, with harder steps, if someone was really struggling, others would help them figure it out. So as long as you had the time, you were able to do it. Notice how much shorter this thread is vs. prior plots'. Yes, part of that is because PPT is smaller. But comparing the actual comments, very little of our discussion has been about how to do certain plot steps. And to me, that indicates that this plot has been far too easy as long as you have a guide. In the past, even with a guide, people struggled. And so when you finally solved a step, it meant something. Here, not so much. It just means you jumped through TNT's hoops.

The only exceptions might be Castle Nox and the dark caves -- but for the dark caves, mapping them when they were invisible was much harder than just fumbling around randomly (compared to the vines step in ToW, when some people really had to map them to finish). And Castle Nox was more tedious than challenging, I think.

Aah! Calculus! I'm taking Geometry now! Maybe that's why my answers are never right... :(

This is my first official plot (Been around for AotA, but never participated in it), so I don't really know how hard ToW and LDP was. But I looked at the previous plot answers for the Dr. Sloth plot, and I would have never got that. I do agree, though. The plot steps are very easy to solve. Just see what what does, and you're pretty much good. Prancing through hoops, that's all.

For some plot steps, like the Battledome, I couldn't complete. But they did get me a little bit motivated to work at the Battledome harder.

I never mapped the Dark Caves. I just yelled, searched the floor, flailed my arms, the went to the next tunnel. Castle Nox was a bit puzzling at first, but once you group everyong together, it became really easy.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW PLOT!! The Faeries' Ruin
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:30 am 
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Chapter 16 is out. How will things turn out after we've spent so much time insulting a lady with the ability to call forth green lightning and anger-management issues?
http://www.neopets.com/faerieland/tfr/c ... chapter=16
OH MY GOD WHAT DID THEY DO I HATE YOU TNT I HATE YOU I HATE YOU I HATE YOU I HATE YOU


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 Post subject: Re: NEW PLOT!! The Faeries' Ruin
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:47 pm 
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Really? You didn't see that possibility coming? It was the one I was hoping for, but only if we get a nice difficult puzzle to fix things. Yes, I dwell in the Land of Eternal Optimism. It's a never-ending hill, down which I constantly tumble as my hopes are dashed again and again. But there's got to be a bottom somewhere, right? And I have enough momentum to carry me to the top of the next hill.

After the AotA plot, where the supposedly smart Clara had to have most of the puzzles figured out by the allegedly dumb-as-a-post Roxton, I'm glad that TNT's giving Brynn a chance to shine. Though I do love Hanso.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW PLOT!! The Faeries' Ruin
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:20 pm 
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Quote:
Yes, I dwell in the Land of Eternal Optimism. It's a never-ending hill, down which I constantly tumble as my hopes are dashed again and again.

Like a wheel of cheese?


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 Post subject: Re: NEW PLOT!! The Faeries' Ruin
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:38 am 
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shapu wrote:
Quote:
Yes, I dwell in the Land of Eternal Optimism. It's a never-ending hill, down which I constantly tumble as my hopes are dashed again and again.

Like a wheel of cheese?

How'd you know I've been mistaken for a Very Stinky Cheese?


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 Post subject: Re: NEW PLOT!! The Faeries' Ruin
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:31 am 
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shapu wrote:
Chapter 16 is out. How will things turn out after we've spent so much time insulting a lady with the ability to call forth green lightning and anger-management issues?
http://www.neopets.com/faerieland/tfr/c ... chapter=16
OH MY GOD WHAT DID THEY DO I HATE YOU TNT I HATE YOU I HATE YOU I HATE YOU I HATE YOU

Wow. Just...wow. I like. A lot. I know that may sound bad for those who appreciate the characters, but I do as well. What I like is the story, and you can't have a good story without moments as this. Sometimes. All the same, wow. :D


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 Post subject: Re: NEW PLOT!! The Faeries' Ruin
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:20 pm 
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On the one hand, I believe this has been the greatest event on Neopets since the Tale of Woe Plot. The complexity and general structure hasn't been as good by a long way (As soon as I saw in an Editorial about how we were going to be able to 'See our Progress' I had a horrible feeling that we'd end up jumping through hoops to do things we wouldn't have been graded on doing in previous plots. Eg. Using all of the insults even though it would naturally mean we'd lose a lot. I would have prefered a version of the end of Plot stats pages we get and a list of Steps we'd completed being updated every so often. Meh. That and I've spent more time checking for Plot Updates than it's taken me to do the Steps... and I don't check that often. :oops:) but beggars can't be choosers and it's had a pretty good story so far. ^^

On the other hand... the ending of the Tale of Woe reminded me of the original Fullmetal Alchemist series (admittedly, I don't know why... my love of FMA has probably blinded me here but I thought it was worth a mention...), The Return of Dr Sloth was just like Laputa: Castle in the Sky's ending and I'd hate to see this go the same way as... Ahem. Continued for Concept Spoilers:

...Pokemon: The First Movie. I doubt Brynn's tears/love will magically solve the situation (...not because it wouldn't be funny, but because it would mean all of the Faeries' petrified forms would have to go through the same process. Which would be odd. ...Another Plot Step consisting of getting your pets to cry over the Faeries... yeah... odd. O.o) but with the Laputa thing I've started noticing similiarities more. D: Sigh.


Why do I get the feeling that this will happen?:

Altador/Jazan/etc. will seeing Hanso petrified and be perfectly happy to leave him be. Brynn will get ticked off and give some huge speech about how Hanso is a hero and that they owe him... possibly with some reference to the Altador Plot (maybe Kelland (sp?)) thrown in for good measure. Then Altador will change his mind and then we'll have to do another Step to save Hanso. Or something. I just get the feeling they're going to drag the Plot into next year... but that's just me. -shrugs-


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 Post subject: Re: NEW PLOT!! The Faeries' Ruin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:56 pm 
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MagicalMystery wrote:

Why do I get the feeling that this will happen?:

Altador/Jazan/etc. will seeing Hanso petrified and be perfectly happy to leave him be. Brynn will get ticked off and give some huge speech about how Hanso is a hero and that they owe him... possibly with some reference to the Altador Plot (maybe Kelland (sp?)) thrown in for good measure. Then Altador will change his mind and then we'll have to do another Step to save Hanso. Or something. I just get the feeling they're going to drag the Plot into next year... but that's just me. -shrugs-

TNT used to read these boards every so often. I hope they do, see this spoiler content above, freak out, change their plot completely, and end up with something involving a car chase.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW PLOT!! The Faeries' Ruin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:49 pm 
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Hmm... A car chase. I like it :P


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 Post subject: Re: NEW PLOT!! The Faeries' Ruin
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:04 pm 
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Speculation is rife that the last chapter will be released today, giving that it's TNT's holiday week comic up, and... I don't know, someone broke into the headquarters and intercepted their homing pigeons, or something.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW PLOT!! The Faeries' Ruin
PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:56 am 
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It was indeed. No new steps, but the chapter wasn't a bad conclusion. There are some changes on the world and Faerieland maps. Dare I say it looks a little less kiddy, slightly more mature?

If you still have fearless deeds to complete, you have until the end of the year to do so.

According to TNT's Facebook page, there will be an epilogue when the prize shop is released.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW PLOT!! The Faeries' Ruin
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:58 pm 
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Blue wrote:
Hmm... A car chase. I like it :P


Yes, I thought it would be nice, but they did not heed my input.

*sigh*.


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