Altador Plot Split #13

[JhasNeeh]

Yesterday, some people started to compare there datas, including the statue they find their oil behind. I think that would be a good idea to continue, because not two people with the same statue have given their datas, so we cant compare anything. It would be great if we realise that there's not thousands of unique maps, but twelve of them, or anything of that kind.

And for the space station, I dont think it's anything revelent, I mean, we do see satellites in the sky and it have nothing to do with stars behind, it's just part of the scenery.

Theres a reason we stopped going down that line - because it's been proven false, the statues are random. Please don't try to set the masses going again - we've only just about got rid of it and it was started in the first thread.

[Mimi]

Ok, I have just sifted through three threads and found that most all of them say the same thing.

1) People are confused about the second map, it's unknown when the second map occurs (thought to happen just by refreshing);
2) People are still trying to find the constellations, and decompile the flash thing when they're only going to get glyphs;
3) People are still trying to compare data.

This is what I know: Everything is individual, the statues of our oil/rag were random, each sky has coordinates different from someone else's sky, and no one has found a constellation yet out of the million+ users of Neopets.

This is what I hypothesize: We are grasping for straws and can't find the constellation yet and we should just hold our horses until this weekend, when an update will most likely occur.

[farside]

Yesterday, some people started to compare there datas, including the statue they find their oil behind. I think that would be a good idea to continue, because not two people with the same statue have given their datas, so we cant compare anything. It would be great if we realise that there's not thousands of unique maps, but twelve of them, or anything of that kind.

And for the space station, I dont think it's anything revelent, I mean, we do see satellites in the sky and it have nothing to do with stars behind, it's just part of the scenery.

Theres a reason we stopped going down that line - because it's been proven false, the statues are random. Please don't try to set the masses going again - we've only just about got rid of it and it was started in the first thread.

I disagree with you. Nothing has been proven at all. If so, what was the proof? Sure, the statues seem "random", but so do these star maps. And whether there is any link between the statues and the star maps is a secondary point. The primary goal is to establish whether or not all of these maps are truly unique.

Think about it. Neopets is somehow remembering the coordinates data for everyone. Otherwise, the servers should be giving you a new star map every single time. Now, let's say everyone's map is unique. That means Neopets must store the data points for everyone on the mini-plot. This would take significantly more disk space than simply storing pointers to a set batch of possible maps.

But, even though storing unique maps is more resource-intensive, it is far from impossible. The greater challenge in issuing unique maps to everyone would be in generating the maps in the first place and then checking them. The maps cannot be entirely random or unique as they must contain one or more similar sets of constellations. In regards to checking solutions, if the star maps are limited, the server can simply check data points and lines versus the solution set for the assigned map. If all star maps are unique, the server would have to first check that the data points in the proposed solution are valid to the unique map and then run through assorted calculations (like area or distance and slope of lines or between star points, etc.) trying to validate versus known constellation formations. Again, though not impossible, it is much more difficult to write and way more resource-intensive.

Anyway, I believe trying to figure out how maps are created/assigned and checked will lead us towards the expected solution.

[dawnmomoffour]

I figure there is a "Step" we are missing or that isn't released yet, that tells us how to find the first set of coordinates..then we do that step over again to get 2nd set of coordinates..etc...til they are all found. Of course, this is only MY opinion LOL

[burntouttrash]

I disagree with you. Nothing has been proven at all. If so, what was the proof? Sure, the statues seem "random", but so do these star maps. And whether there is any link between the statues and the star maps is a secondary point. The primary goal is to establish whether or not all of these maps are truly unique.

Think about it. Neopets is somehow remembering the coordinates data for everyone. Otherwise, the servers should be giving you a new star map every single time. Now, let's say everyone's map is unique. That means Neopets must store the data points for everyone on the mini-plot. This would take significantly more disk space than simply storing pointers to a set batch of possible maps.

But, even though storing unique maps is more resource-intensive, it is far from impossible. The greater challenge in issuing unique maps to everyone would be in generating the maps in the first place and then checking them. The maps cannot be entirely random or unique as they must contain one or more similar sets of constellations. In regards to checking solutions, if the star maps are limited, the server can simply check data points and lines versus the solution set for the assigned map. If all star maps are unique, the server would have to first check that the data points in the proposed solution are valid to the unique map and then run through assorted calculations (like area or distance and slope of lines or between star points, etc.) trying to validate versus known constellation formations. Again, though not impossible, it is much more difficult to write and way more resource-intensive.

Anyway, I believe trying to figure out how maps are created/assigned and checked will lead us towards the expected solution.

The thing about the statues was disproved by people who deliberately went to different statues after finding the oil, rather than clicking on it, and found it again behind a different statue.

And if TNT managed to create unique Temples- and the Temples were pretty flipping big- for everyone in the LDP, I don't see that unique starmaps are that much of a stretch, given that they're smaller.

[farside]

Again, these star maps CANNOT be entirely random and unique versus one another. If we are all looking for the same constellation or constellations on our "unique" maps, they must have certain formations in common. If we are not all looking for the same constellation on our map but are looking for one specifically assigned to us per star map, then everyone assigned to that same constellation must have a certain formation of stars in common.

Does that make sense?

If so, then it stands to reason that determining the commonalities will lead to the solution(s).

[dolphinling]

Ok, I have just sifted through three threads and found that most all of them say the same thing.

1) People are confused about the second map, it's unknown when the second map occurs (thought to happen just by refreshing);

NO. It happens for certain servers. Did you read my big explanation of the whole thing?

[Mimi]

Although we are deliberately looking for the same constellations, it does not mean that our maps will show any similarities at all. The number of stars, the colours of stars, and the location of stars will be completely individual and random as to those of other people. The only thing that is in common is that we are struggling to find constellations.

Honestly, I don't believe anything more can be done until TNT updates again.


Dolphinling: No, sorry, I was just sifting and I must have skipped that page. But there we go, that explains it. So, people are fussing over the second star chart when there really is no need to fuss over it because it could very well just be a glitch, correct? And, that it doesn't really matter because we'll still be able to progress despite it.

Last edited by Mimi on Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[JhasNeeh]

Again, these star maps CANNOT be entirely random and unique versus one another. If we are all looking for the same constellation or constellations on our "unique" maps, they must have certain formations in common. If we are not all looking for the same constellation on our map but are looking for one specifically assigned to us per star map, then everyone assigned to that same constellation must have a certain formation of stars in common.

Does that make sense?

If so, then it stands to reason that determining the commonalities will lead to the solution(s).

I'm trying not to get angry here. We have had many PPTers collaberate multiple maps along the way and NONE have found 2 matching. Were you here for the LDP? Everyone had a perfectly unique temple with the common factors of a statue and the rooms etc.

The fact that the next step hasn't been released yet and we can't find the constelations because they aren't there is a large factor. When they do appear, through a new telescope or whatever, we will all be looking for exactly the same formations without rotation or resize because thats how constelations work.

Now, please, can we stick to new ideas rather than dragging up old ones we have thrown out multiple times?

[moihaha]

First, i dont think finding any link between two people maps will gives us any definite answer now, i still think we need some more info released by TNT. BUT I dont think anybody proved that all maps where individuals (I dont say it's impossible, but for me it's unlikely), so I think we should at least continue to compare it until we find anything or it PROVES false.

[Kamil]

I figure there is a "Step" we are missing or that isn't released yet, that tells us how to find the first set of coordinates..then we do that step over again to get 2nd set of coordinates..etc...til they are all found. Of course, this is only MY opinion LOL

I think we're missing a step too - or the next step isn't activated, one or the other. If not, surely, out of all of the thousands of users working on this right now, surely someone would have found a working set of coordinates.

I think the next step involves finding a way for the janitor to join the a club. I think this because he's wishing he could join a club - and in the LDP every time a npc wished for something, be it a tee-shirt or a vial of smoke, and we found it for them we also advanced a step.

Now how to find someone or something to mop for him so he can join a club instead? I have no idea. But I think that's likely to be the way the next advance is made.

Or, yanno, not. Whichever. =D

[Susannahmio]

I also think there is nothing more to be done untill TNT updates. It seems to me that there is a step we either haven't found or hasn't been released. I also don't think they will wait till friday to update it either, this was a relatively quick step to do, whereas the first update took a little longer. There has to be somewhere to go or something to look at that we haven't seen yet, that will tell us which constellations we individually need to find in the sky.

My 2 cents....

[farside]

I'm trying not to get angry here.

Please. Do feel free to get angry. What ridiculous and childish behavior.

You go about your solution your way, and I will go about it my way.

I say the constellations must be the same for everyone because the shapes in the Flash file are the same for everyone. Unless there is some dynamic resizing or mirroring or rotating going on with those shapes, that means the star formation forming any specific constellation must be the same for everyone. That does not necessarily mean the stars in that star formation will be in the exact same locations for everyone.

[moihaha]

I figure there is a "Step" we are missing or that isn't released yet, that tells us how to find the first set of coordinates..then we do that step over again to get 2nd set of coordinates..etc...til they are all found. Of course, this is only MY opinion LOL

I think we're missing a step too - or the next step isn't activated, one or the other. If not, surely, out of all of the thousands of users working on this right now, surely someone would have found a working set of coordinates.

I think the next step involves finding a way for the janitor to join the a club. I think this because he's wishing he could join a club - and in the LDP every time a npc wished for something, be it a tee-shirt or a vial of smoke, and we found it for them we also advanced a step.

Now how to find someone or something to mop for him so he can join a club instead? I have no idea. But I think that's likely to be the way the next advance is made.

Or, yanno, not. Whichever. =D

Not that I wish to discourage theories, but the janitor wish he had TIME to join a club, it's subtle, maybe, but for me it's just a way of being rude, as if we where loosing our time when he had to work. But I definitly aproves the idea of finding something else to do than star gazing, as thousands of people did not find anything in days of doing it.

[Mimi]

First, i dont think finding any link between two people maps will gives us any definite answer now, i still think we need some more info released by TNT. BUT I dont think anybody proved that all maps where individuals (I dont say it's impossible, but for me it's unlikely), so I think we should at least continue to compare it until we find anything or it PROVES false.

It's very difficult to "prove" anything false when there are certain factors that are not provided by us. In order to "prove" it false, all we have to work off of at co-ordinates and the visual representation of the skies. It's more than likely that maps could possibly share a co-ordinate or two, but I believe that the possibility of any skies sharing more than 20 co-ordinates is balderdash. Sharing even just 10 would be difficult to track.

In order to "prove" any of this, we'd have to have every person here working on the mini-plot contribute the co-ordinates of their graphs and sift through 250+ individual co-ordinates from each person's map and keep track of any that match.

So, just by the sheer magnitude of attempting to "prove" there could be maps that are not completely individual is too steep to even attempt, so right now the best we can do is hypothesize with common sense and a general understanding of probability and randomization that each map is individual. That proffered idea should be enough to "prove" it.

But I suppose that if people are so stubborn about not accepting that each map is individual, someone could create a program to store every individual sky's co-ordinates in a database, and code it so that it sifts through them until it finds co-ordinates which match up. But that is only if you really want to get technical.

As for me, I think that's a bit much and I think it's enough to just, for now, assume that there are no maps identical and that they are all individual, with the only similarity being the glyphs found in the flash file.